Water Dungeons and Water-types

So, I'm sure anyone who doesn't live under the rock is aware that you can only reach the water dungeons on the site by having a Water-type character or having a Water-type ferry your character there (at which point you probably wouldn't be able to do much because the character can't breathe under water or hold their breath long enough.)  This system seems simple enough, right?  No changes required?

WRONG!

Logically, whether or not one can enter these dungeons should not be based off their type, but off whether or not they're capable of that level of swimming.  This can easily be determined by whether or not the character is capable of learning both Surf and Dive.  Surf shows long-distance swimming capabilities and Dive shows the capability to remain under water for extended periods of time.  Now, I know what you may be thinking: "But, but, that's the exact same thing as Water-types, they can all swim and dive!"  Well, wrong again!

Some Water-types actually can't learn the HMs Surf and/or Dive.  On top of that, there are some non-Water-types that CAN learn both, and some that can learn Dive and could easily just fly to the area before diving in as opposed to surfing.  Don't believe me?  Check for yourself.  I'll use Dragonite as my example because Dragonite can fly and learn Dive.  Logically, it should be able to enter water dungeons because it is clearly perfectly capable of doing so.  Meanwhile, something like Lotad should not be able to really get anywhere because it's stuck floating on the surface, as shown by its inability to learn Dive until it evolves.

Next, you probably want to argue that Surf/Fly and Dive aren't good indicators of whether or not one is capable of accomplishing such a feat, because they're HMs, which means they TEACH the Pokemon how to do this when it previously couldn't.  Well, YOU'RE REALLY GOOD AT BEING WRONG THEN!  Surf merely teaches a Pokemon already capable of proper swimming how to properly ferry someone along with them, and how to summon and control waves for some reason.  Fly teaches a Pokemon how to fly extremely fast for extremely long periods of time, and thus make it capable of inflicting noteworthy damage in a battle.  Dive teaches a Pokemon already capable of diving how to properly carry someone down under water with them and it apparently teaches them how to dive into solid ground or something but lets just pretend that last part doesn't exist because it makes literally no sense.

Also, I don't think Pokemon should be capable of "ferrying" others to water dungeons.  Now, here you may want to argue "But if they're capable of surfing, that means they're capable of ferrying someone across water according to you!"  Well, for once, you're not wrong, so congratulations!  However, consider this; what exactly is a Pokemon incapable of extended diving supposed to do once they are ferried to a water dungeon?  Sit on the surface?  Yes, they can logically be brought there, but they can't really do anything once they get there.  WHY would you want to do that?  Why?  The character technically can't really even get to the actual dungeon, as all of the water-based dungeons are UNDER the water.  What is the Water-type supposed to do, give your character mouth to mouth constantly to give them oxygen?  If they're holding their breath, they have little-to-none to spare, and if they're breathing through gills of any kind (be it internal or external,) they do not have pure oxygen to give to you and would drown you trying to do the opposite.

Airborne/floating places, on the other hand, SHOULD allow for "air-ferrying" of sorts, because one could logically walk around up there just fine once brought to the area.  Yet I don't see any mention of it being allowed for those capable of reaching the floating areas to carry others up with them, so I feel that should be addressed.  You can drag someone under water with you without them drowning, but you can't fly them up to a place that floats?  Also, there should probably be a weight limit on who can carry who, because I'm just not seeing a a Zubat OR a Magikarp carrying a Snorlax anywhere.

TL;DR, entry to water dungeons should be based off whether or not the Pokemon is capable of learning Surf/Fly and Dive.  Also, Pokemon should be allowed to be carried to floating areas if they can't fly, and Pokemon should not be allowed to be ferried to water dungeons, or at the very least, what one can do once ferried to a water dungeon should be extremely limited if they can't learn Dive.

Side note, don't take my mock-hostility seriously, anyone who knows me should know I like to joke.  

Thank you Lord E V!!! They. Are. Wrong! I've been telling people that for years!!! Once again, thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How about an Energy cost for ferrying a character to a Water dungeon? Like, instead of the penalty alone, add a little extra onto the Water type who ferries a Pokémon.

Yeah! I agree with that!

At one point I wanted to argue that in the PMD world, where trainers aren't a thing, the HMs were pretty useless and pointless, but I guess your explanations of them are well enough to void that.

Now with that said, Pokemon are freaking magic, and based on the animation of dive back in Black and White, I figured Dive made a bubble of air around the user so the passenger could breathe for a bit. So I think ferrying Pokemon is fine assuming Dive works that way—the passenger just needs to stay pretty close to their guide.

Most of what you're saying makes sense. However, your logic is flawed in one major area:

The HM's are not indicative of whether or not the Pokémon can do that task at all.

I would like to present to you one Gyarados. Gyarados does not learn the HM move Fly. A such, it should be incapable of flying. Or at the very least, incapable of ferrying humans. HOWEVER. Gyarados CAN be used in Sky Battles in XY. This means that it most certainly /can/ fly and that this is now in-game canon. Well, then the argument naturally turns to "Well, then they simply can't ferry humans through the skies." And to that argument, I counter with basic logic: Gyarados is 21.3 feet long, comes with large horns on its head for gripping, and boasts a powerful 125 ATK stat, implying great physical strength. Where is the logical reason that it cannot ferry something? Especially when you consider that /Pidgey/ is somehow able to do it, despite not being able to participate in Sky Battles?

The fact of the matter is, the Pokémon that can utilize HM's and can't are sometimes nonsensical. Heck, Beartic can learn Dive. Now how the heck does that make sense? Are you trying to tell me that Beartic miraculously have gills? No. They are just extremely good swimmers. They cannot breathe underwater.

In addition, the entirety of that long-winded post literally applies to a grand total of 10 Pokémon that aren't Water-types. 7 of those 10 Pokémon cannot be made characters: Mew, Mewtwo, Lugia, Latias, Latios, Rayquaza and Arceus. So in short...even if this were to taken into consideration, it would literally only apply to three Pokémon species: Dragonite, Beartic and Dragalge (which is the only one of the three that actually makes sense if you ask me).

However, I do agree that air-ferrying should be a thing. I honestly don't see why it wouldn't be...especially if sea-ferrying is. For example, my character Hidon will eventually be a Charizard. There's absolutely /no/ reason that he shouldn't be able to carry his teammate Raze into the sky with him to Aileron.

Ferrying to water dungeons isn't possible because of the breathing issue. Anything that can't breathe underwater cannot logically go to a water dungeon and that's all I can say on the matter really.

Ferrying to places like Aileron and Aileron Guild is however possible (Same with any non-dungeon areas) as long as it makes sense. For example, a Charizard would be able to carry smaller pokemon like Raze up to Aileron. We have never said otherwise, however I am now aware that I do not believe we have stated this anywhere in the site's rules and as such I will work on a thread that further explains the rules for exclusive dungeons including non dungeon areas such as Aileron.

As always though, it is encouraged you pass anything like this through an admin before actually doing it just to double check.


The only problem here comes with Flying dungeons. Staff and members have spoken before and said that only pokemon who can participate in Sky Battles are able to explore dungeons like Sky Pyramid.


Anywho I hope this answers some things but this is a quick reply mostly to Digi's post as i'm currently working on other things and haven't re-read the entire thread.

My issue with determining Sky Pyramid access on whether they can participate in Sky Battles would be with Pokémon like Farfetch'd, Gengar, and Fletchling. They aren't grounded but can't take part because of their ground bound sprites, which is a non-issue in this kind of rp. I can understand stopping the likes of Doduo and Natu but most of those barred flying/floating Pokémon should realistically have no problems getting there.

List here.

Pokemon with Levitate can also go to Sky Pyramid so Gengar can still go. (My bad there for forgetting to mention that.) Fletchling and Farfetch'd I have no fix for currently, but the rules could probably do with a little amending to include those sorts of pokemon.

For now though, until an official fix is made the ruling is Sky Battle or Levitate needed to go there.

Although it is a decent list, I do feel there are a few Pokemon in that list that actually are rather odd. I feel like these should not be able to reach Aileron and I will explain why.

Gyarados: It's a fish...I do not once remember that this thing was able to fly....ever.

Scyther: Although Scyther can fly, I don't think they would be able to reach Aileron. The Firered Pokedex entry states that it is rarely seen flying.

Mantine and Mantyke: Once again, it is a fish. A fish that I do not remember being able to fly, and even if it could, it would probably not be able to reach Aileron.

Gligar and Gliscor: I feel their "wings" work more as a glider, meaning they are not able to fly. Their name says it even. They could go up with the help of warm air currents, I think, but I don't think they would be able to reach Aileron through that.

Emolga: This is a flying squirrel. These animals use the lose skin to be able to glide through the air as they jump from tree to tree. It even states in the Pokedex that they glide, and not fly.

There are a few more I think are a bit weird but they still make a bit of sense.

Woah.  I didn't realize this got necro'd.

@Digizel I have one very simple way to disprove what you have just said: Gyarados floats.  Serpentine dragons in myths have been known to float - not necessarily fly - and that reflects in Pokemon.  Gyarados isn't the only serpent-dragon to float; just look at Dragonair.  Dragonair cannot fly either, despite it being canon that it can "fly."  Clearly, floating through whatever voodoo magic these two use does not equate to being able to properly fly and carry someone around.  Sky battles simply require being airborne, while the move "Fly" requires flying up very high.  So, logically, Gyarados shouldn't even be able to go to airborne dungeons.  Even if they can, they clearly aren't capable of carrying others for one reason or another, regardless of their physical stature.

As for Beartic learning dive, not only does it make PERFECT sense, but you also seem to have skimmed over the part of my original post where I explained why it makes sense.  You don't need gills to dive.  Many land animals, including penguins and bears are capable of diving underwater for extended periods of time.  At that, some aquatic animals do not have gills.  They manage this through a miraculous feat known as breath-holding.  Beartic are capable of holding their breath for an extended period of time.  In fact, there are no ridiculous users of these HMs that I can think of.  Even with the odd fly-users, I've done the math, and the strength feats of even physically weak Pokemon are insane enough to warrant something like a pidgey carrying a human.  Easily.

So, as you should be able to see, HMs are a fine indication as to whether or not a Pokemon is capable of doing these things.  As for what Pokemon this affects, again, it seems like you kind of skimmed parts of my post.  I listed some Pokemon that this would effect aside from the ones you mentioned, such as Lotad.  Lotad can't dive because its head-leaf-thing acts as a flotation device.  Therefore, it should not be capable of proper exploration of water dungeons, which shouldn't be a problem since it can traverse land just fine.

@Solilo why can Pokemon be carried to Aileron, but not to sky dungeons?  There isn't anything in the descriptions of them that would imply this to be impossible.  I also do not think sky battles should be the choice of indicator, as sky battles simply require being able to get airborne, not necessarily being able to fly high up.  "Fly" requires flying high into the sky, which is a far better indicator of whether or not something should be able to reach the airborne areas.

There actually is also a bit of a flawed logic with this. The biggest example I can give is Doduo and Dodrio. They are not really able to fly, if I remember correctly. They are able to jump really high, which makes it seem like they are flying. It would seem unlikely for them to be able to just jump to the floating isles.

Another thing, there are various Pokemon who can sky battle but cannot learn fly. Lets look at the ones who are actually flying types for now and/or have actual wings meant for flying. It doesn't seem unlikely to me that those would be able to reach the islands. Of course, the islands are rather high up so it would take a lot of work for those but is it really impossible? Also, what would prevent a Pokemon like Solrock and Lunatone, who are said to come from space, to get to those islands?

Although both seem like interesting indicators, I think the best thing to do is to make an actual list of which Pokemon could reach the islands, and a list of which Pokemon could explore the sea dungeons. That would clear up a lot of confusion.

I can't use an @ thing for ur username Sova it's so frustrating omg

Anyways. We originally did use Fly or the Flying typing as an indicator for who could go up to the sky dungeons and people weren't happy with that and so we changed it to Sky Battles or Levitate. We're not going to change it back because the same argument will just happen all over again.


@Evana I'm willing to make a list but with the other things I have to do on this site a list of yes or no's to which species can enter water/sky dungeons is not high on my priority list when there's already a structure in place and I already have to do a list of how Nature Power/Camouflage work per dungeon, so I wouldn't expect it anytime soon.


Edit:
@Lord E V, Whoops I forgot to answer this part. Basically pokemon can be carried to Aileron because we wanted to open up more people joining that guild, plus the village and the island it's on are floating islands of solid ground. We imagine Sky Pyramid to be in the clouds and partially made of clouds, and so only pokemon that can hover/fly above clouds can access the entire island as not all of it would be solid ground.

@Evana Doduo and dodrio CAN fly. In fact, one of Doduo's Pokedex entries specifically states that it is a "poor flier." That means it can fly, but that it just isn't the greatest at it.

I'm aware there are Pokemon that can sky battle and can't learn Fly. What's your point? I already said I don't think sky battles should be used to decide this, because a Pokemon doesn't have to be capable of extensive flight to perform in these battles. They just have to be able to get off the ground for a few minute, whereas with the move Fly, they have to be capable of flying high and far. Solrock and Lunatone CAME from space, but that doesn't mean they flew down. They're basically rocks, so they likely crashed like meteorites. Not to mention the keyword there is that they're only said to come from space.

However, despite this, I do agree that an in-depth list of what can and can't go to the dungeons would be best. It would be a lot more work, but it would be the best option.

@Solilo Git rekt I'm speshul.

But an argument's happening now. Or.... sort of. I mean, this is pretty civil, so I guess it isn't an argument. Anyway, if you don't want to use the more logical option out of fear for complaints (which will probably happen no matter what you do), then I'd suggest to go with a comprehensive list like Evana said.

Wouldn't a Pokemon capable of ferrying another to Aileron also be able to grant them safe passage through the sky dungeons? That'd be somewhat boring for the passenger, but it still seems fairly reasonable to me.

I don't want to touch the water dungeons, however, I do believe if at the very least the Dratini line should be allowed access to at least Coral Forests because the primary and secondary forms have been shown in official art, the manga, the anime, and the games to live in water, with Dragonair being known to stay in the water for stupidly insane amounts of time that would make a Wailord look like a wimp when it comes to holding its breath. Dragalge should also be allowed access to all water dungeons if it doesn't already because it's a god damned sea horse, just cause it lost the water typing in favor of the dragon typing doesn't mean it can't live in the deep sea anymore. I do think all ice types should also have access. They're literally the embodiment of frozen water, so at the very least they should know something about swimming and diving and not trying to breath underwater.

As for every other Pokemon, I ain't gonna vouch for any of them because for the most part they all need to train to hold their breath long enough to stay in these dungeon. I could make up an argument that Gauel should be able to go into these water dungeons due to regularly swimming and diving at his hometown, but Grovyle themselves aren't known as epic swimmers or divers. Perhaps an item could be added that allows temporary underwater breathing? I know in Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate you can make a special item that allows you to hold your breath for much longer while underwater. Essentially this item, when used at the start of the thread, can allow 5 pages before the character must use another or leave. Or drown, that's an option too, I suppose.

Now, as for Aileron and Sky Pyramid... deep breath
Charizard, Butterfree, Beedrill, Pidgey, Pidgeotto, Pidgeot, Spearow, Fearow, Zubat, Golbat, Venomoth, Magnemite, Magneton, Farfetch'd, Ghastly, Haunter, Gengar, Koffing, Weezing, Scyther, Mega Pinsir, Gyarados, Aerodactyl, Dratini, Dragonair, Dragonite, Hoothoot, Noctowl, Ledyba, Ledian, Crobat, Togetic, Natu, Xatu, Yanma, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Gligar, Heracross, Skarmory, Porygon2, Beautifly, Dustox, Taillow, Swellow, Wingull, Pelipper, Masquerain, Ninjask, Shedinja, Volbeat, Illumise, Wailord, Vibrava, Flygon, Swablu, Altaria, Lunatone, Solrock, Claydol, Tropius, Glalie, Salamence, Beldum, Metang, Metagross, Starly, Staravia, Staraptor, Kricketune, Mothim, Combee, Vespiquen, Drifloon, Drifblim, Mismagius, Honchkrow, Bronzor, Bronzong, Garchomp, Magnezone, Togekiss, Yanmega, Gliscor, Porygon-Z, Dusknoir, Froslass, Munna, Musharna, Pidove, Tranquill, Unfezant, Woobat, Swoobat, Cottonee, Whimsicott, Sigilyph, Yamask, Confagrigus, Archeops, Solosis, Duosion, Reuniculus, Ducklett, Swanna, Vanillite, Vanillish, Vanilluxe, Emolga, Escavalier, Frillish, Jellicent, Klink, Klang, Klinklang, Tynamo, Eelektrik, Eelektross, Elgyem, Beheeyem, Lampent, Chandelure, Cryogonal, Druddigon, Golurk, Braviary, Mandibuzz, Hydreigon, Volcarona, Fletchling, Fletchinder, Talonflame, Vivillon, Flabebe, Floette, Honedge, Doublade, Aegislash, Spritzee, Inkay, Klefki, Phantump, Pumpkaboo, Noibat, and Noivern.

OTL pant, pant, pant

All of these Pokemon have been shown to possess the ability of sustained flight. They are able to remain airborne for very long periods of time with no apparent limit to the altitude they can reach. Legendary Pokemon were obviously excluded cause they're all special snowflakes that can probably make up a reason to fly (aka Dialgia can apparently levitate despite most depictions showing it grounded). Some Pokemon, such as some evolved or pre-evolved forms of flight capable Pokemon were not added due to them being depicted as not being capable of flight at the time or no longer in that form. There are two exceptions to this rule: Ditto and Mega Pinsir. If a Ditto character is travelling with a character that can enter the dungeon, there is nothing stopping the Ditto transforming into said character before entering the dungeon. While Pinsir itself is depicted as completely grounded, Mega Pinsir can fly, and this a Pinsir character can enter the dungeon so long as it Mega Evolves first, however it will be forced to land before it's Pinsirite loses all of its charges.

Phew, I need a Coke.