Revert to Gen 7 Movesets (Sometimes)

TL;DR I would like to see players given the chance to use either their character's gen 7 or gen 8 movesets, since a lot of pokemon lost some interesting moves in the generation gap.


Gen 8 nuked a lot of moveset variety. This was intended for game balance, but it unfortunately kills a lot of creativity in our forum here. Gen 8 made some... interesting choices. It says a lot that we're relieved when our character species aren't in SW/SH because that means their moveset is unscathed!

Some pokemon that I've checked got out mostly the same, but others - especially the less popular ones - got a straight downgrade. A lot of pokemon lost some of their move variety, including a lot of options that could be fun to use creatively in roleplay, and I would like to see reintroduced.

For this example, I'm going to use my Porygon character, Tec. In the jump from Gen 7 to Gen 8, I effectively got only downgrades for him. While he did learn some new moves like Thundershock, overall the generation jump was a massive inconvenience for him. Instead of learning one of his final moves, Recover, at level 18, he now learns it at level 35. My Salandit character has also had some general weirdness - she lost a very good gen 7 egg move, Knock Off, and for some reason in Sw/Sh, she was unable to learn Toxic by TM, despite learning the move via level up (which still baffles me, to be honest).

And my characters are on the lighter end of the spectrum! Turns out that this can hit new characters especially hard. Look what happened to poor Heracross' starting set. This is Ultra Sun and Moon...



... versus Sword and Shield.



Aerodactyl was another unfortunate victim of the generation jump, with it's starting set taking a very drastic hit.





... Let's be honest, this is just... depressing.

These were characters belonging to people I've talked to about this, but I'd recommend comparing your own characters gen 7 movesets to their gen 8 counterparts. Chances are pretty good that they lost a fun option or two, even if it wasn't as drastic a change as Heracross and Aerodactyl. Tec lost Signal Beam, for instance. While this isn't a move I plan on having in his final set, it would have been a fun one to play with while he was leveling up.

My proposed solution to this is letting people pick between the Gen 7 and Gen 8 movesets. One or the other, no flip-flopping halfway through. (Pokemon that were introduced in Gen 8 wouldn't have this option, of course.) I think it kind of sucks to know that you missed out on a lot of fun stuff by being too late to the party, and it would be a pretty easy fix.

Anyhow! This is still a rough idea that I'd like to refine, so comments and criticism are very welcome. Thanks for your time!

I support this idea. The last generation brought cuts to many Pokémons' movesets. Not only that but there is also the weirdness of changing generations that messes up the progression of your characters.

Let's use Marill as an example for this one. Let's say that your Marill character, after evolving from Azumarill at level 11. You are aiming to get Bubble Beam, an upgrade from the previous move Bubble. Before the new update, you may see the following:



However, after the new games were released and the new movesets were presented...



Congratulations! You've missed the time to get the move you wanted and you now have to spend resources relearning the move due to no fault of your own.

Admittedly, that only happens to those caught in the generation shift and the example displays a particularly uninteresting move and it is even beneficial to those that would want to have Bubble Beam in the future. After all, you are getting the move earlier.

The opposite scenario (where you are getting some moves later) is something expected to happen to some Pokémon so I am not going to ramble too much about it but let me tell you that there are some baffling examples. Heracross, the Singlehorn Pokémon, used to either learn Horn Attack by default or at a very early level. It makes sense for the Pokémon known for its single horn to be able to use it naturally.

However, in the new Moveset, instead of getting it from the start you have to wait all the way until level 20. It's easy to see why it happens, since in the game you will only encounter Heracross past this level.

-------------------------------

In conclusion, there are winners and losers in this new Generation. Some Pokémon lost access to some TMs, Egg moves, and got their move learning level thresholds pushed further back. Some other Pokémon gained some much more viable moves and have a much easier time learning levels than before. Lastly, there are some Pokémon that just... didn't make it into Gen VIII and thus haven't changed at all like Dodrio.

The solution seems simple, as Venusian has already commented.

Simply adding an extra line in the Character Bio Template and the records of said character would be enough to make this change be readable and visible to any Record  Checker or Moderator.

Code:

[b]» Level:[/b]
[b]» Energy:[/b]
[b]» Ability:[/b]
[b]» Moveset (GenVII/GenVIII):[/b]
[b]» Moves:[/b]
-
-
-
-

Overall i agree with Prim and Venus. Something the pair haven't pointed out however is that a lot of the natural move progression of characters got changed into TM's. For example, imagine if you're in my position and intending to get a certain move from leveling and you're only a few levels away. Then, out of nowhere the move is suddenly transformed into a TM and no longer becomes possible to learn naturally. Deimos himself is a perfect example of this, regarding Psycho Cut. Typically you'd learn it at level 37, then suddenly it's taken away and forces you to instead have to hunt around and beg for TM's that might have not even been made into TM's on the site yet.

Some mons got hit quite hard by this and a perfect example is the Aerodactyl list that that Venus already showed. Sure, ancient power's an interesting move to get and play around with, but having the entire elemental fang branch removed and turned into TM's drastically decreases the amount of variety one could have with the species. With the four move starting limit, you seriously have to question what moves you'd like due to having so many solid options. Variety is always better than being shoehorned down one path. The question of "Okay, do i want Wing Attack at the start for stab? Okay if i take that i have three spots. Iron Head hits like a truck so i'll take that, but that means i have to give up an elemental fang. Ooh roost as an egg move, that could be good, but then i have to give up another, so which fang is most suited for this character? Or do i go all in on making it more unique and swap in Dragon Breath for ranged attacks and the coolness factor?" Going from so many options to only having one choice to make, your egg move, is a very drastic and painful shift.

I think this is a very good suggestion ^^ I'm aware that a few people have had difficulties with moveset changes over the years.

If I might add another discussion point, how would you prefer to see moveset changes for future generations implemented if there were to be any subsequent dramatic changes or additions in a similar vein to sw/sh? Would you envision it as a simple addition to the list of movesets to choose from?

Solilo wrote:

I think this is a very good suggestion ^^ I'm aware that a few people have had difficulties with moveset changes over the years.

If I might add another discussion point, how would you prefer to see moveset changes for future generations implemented if there were to be any subsequent dramatic changes or additions in a similar vein to sw/sh? Would you envision it as a simple addition to the list of movesets to choose from?

Hmmm - this is definitely something worth considering. I would imagine that this would be a good solution! I can't foresee any real hiccups coming from it, though if anyone had something else in mind, I'm all ears.

Maybe when a new generation comes out, people could get the option to either keep their characters on their current set or switch to the newest one?

I’m here with my opinion. Surprise...?

As someone who hit the jackpot with their movepool due to I guess Riolu and Lucario being too important to downgrade, I’m glad that this isn’t just a “let’s throw every character back a generation regardless of if Gen 8 benefitted them or not.” Otherwise I’d be very much against this suggestion- as it currently stands though, I’m in favor of allowing people to revert to Gen 7 if they desire.

It’d help with character diversity that Gen 8 kills really- I remember hating using some Pokemon in SW/SH because of how badly they got screwed over.

I’ll also admit I’m not sure how to handle future generations if they go the route of SW/SH- the easiest would be admittedly doing the same thing for Gen 9 like this is implying we do for Pokemon in Gen 8 and 7, but only if there's major enough changes to Pokemon's movepools to warrant such decision really in my opinion. A poll could also work possibly if need be on the issue.

Another bit of chatter came up, and I wanted to post here to address a question - could pokemon with Gen 7 movesets still learn moves from future generations?

I think they should be able to, since pokemon with Gen 8 sets can learn transfer moves via TM and tutor. I don't see any reason not to apply the same in reverse. If they learn it via TM or tutor, they could learn it as normal, while perhaps level-up moves could be "relearnt" at the dojo once the pokemon in question hits the level it would have normally learnt it at.

Heyo so I'm a bit late to this and I know I've been kind of inactive/in an observer's position for a long time now. But I did want to point some things out in defense of Gen VIII movesets, just so that you have "another side" to the debate.

To start, I would like to point out that Pokemon have gotten "downgrades" between gens several times in the past. Gen VIII is not alone in this. Like Riolu, for example, who loses Power-Up Punch as a cheap TM option going into Gen VII. Especially with TM moves changing so much. And a bunch of moves have levels altered, often even in the same generation. This is why I usually argue that "levels" shouldn't exist in a Pokemon RP in the first place because the "levels" change so much between generations. But I understand that forums like this need something like levels in order to maintain proper balance and control, so I haven't argued that here.

I would also like to say that a moveset being nerfed from "ridiculous" to "normal" shouldn't really be seen as a bad thing. Basic Pokemon like Heracross had moves like those BECAUSE they are very rare Pokemon and are never found until late early or mid game. By the time you find them, they can't learn those moves except from the Move Reminder. They were never really meant for you to have access to until a certain point in the game. Surely you don't intend to argue that someone like Charmander, who only gets Scratch, Growl, Ember, Smokescreen until Level 16 when you're evolving and finally get Dragon Rage, doesn't already suffer from this problem? A lot of Pokemon have to go through this already; making a few others lose moves doesn't seem like that big a deal. I obviously can't speak for others, but I personally don't choose a Pokemon because their moveset is cool. I choose a Pokemon to make a character because I love that Pokemon. Sure, having cool moves is a bonus, but it's not a requirement. But if you're just being reduced to the level of what others are already putting up with, complaining about it does come off as a little bit entitled. Especially when the Pokemon WITH those moveset alterations are all very strong by species default.

Also worth noting is that you don't need to use MOVES to fight. Pokemon have basic actions like punching, kicking, clawing, bashing with a horn, smacking with a tail, etc. that aren't tied to a move. All of these options are still available and, imo, make movesets less important. Not UNimportant mind you, but less important. Especially if the TM list includes TR's.

However, I do acknowledge the issue of levels changing and a Pokemon "missing" a move they should get normally. But that is easily fixed by simply...allowing them to add it to their moveset, and the character picking up the move IC just as they normally do any move they learned via level up.

The only real complaint I can side with on this particular debate, however, is Blade's. However, while it sucks, I don't think it's the end of the world. In fact, it's actually probably EASIER for you to find a TM than it is to go up those levels; especially if you're unfortunate enough to have MULTIPLE threads go inactive on you because your partner disappears. So you could actually see it as you having access to the move earlier rather than having to wait out those levels. so I have a hard time seeing this in a particularly negative light.

HOWEVER. ALL OF THAT SAID....

...I am not against more character options. Like I said, as someone with characters that suffer this problem already, prior to the Gen VIII changes, I had been making due just fine without them. I wasn't complaining before, and I'm not gonna complain now if people are going to be able to avoid being pushed down into this hole with me. I just find it rather interesting to compare people who had these toys taken and people who never had them to begin with. As a Gen VIII fan, I actually greatly enjoy what movesets have become.

The only real issue I'd take with the proposed solution is that simply choosing a moveset completely disregards new moves as they come in. Again, pointing back to my mindset of "more options is only a good thing in an RP format," I am of the mindset that we should perhaps just allow people to learn moves from any generation they want as they level. They can only learn a certain number of them anyway, right?

I'll use Polly here as an example, my Riolu.

He gets Counter at Level 6 thanks to USUM movesets. Now, Riolu gets Metal Claw at Level 8 in his SWSH set. So come level 8, good ol' Polly can now create a claw from the back of his hand. Come Level 12, he can learn Counter based on his SWSH moves...but since he already learns this thanks to USUM, we just ignore it.

A user also doesn't HAVE to be completely accurate with their moves if they don't want to. Like...if they only want to bother with either the SWSH moveset or the USUM moveset and don't want to go back and forth, then that should be fine too.

This would help a lot of people that have moveset issues with either generation without locking them into one particular moveset forever. However, if this were to happen, I would advise requiring Character Applications and Profiles to start requiring WHICH moveset they learn the move from in addition to the already-required level.

Oh, hiya Digi! Nice to see you.

I would like to clarify that I don’t believe Salandit (or Salazzle, which is rather puzzling to me) can learn Toxic through TR? I couldn’t find it listed on Bulbapedia nor Pokemon DB, at least. Perhaps it can learn it via TR in the game - I don't have it on me to test firsthand - but at the very least, none of the major sites seem to list it. While it's not hugely relevant in this one specific case, since the site already lets you learn TM/TR moves across generations, I do think it's a good example as to how things can be a bit bent already to open up more options.

I do like the idea of letting you learn moves regardless of generation! While it would be a slightly more complicated system in the short term, it would nicely solve the question of future generations. When new games come out, it wouldn't require an update, things could just proceed as usual. I did have a brief concern about this giving a larger advantage to older pokemon, especially the G1 ones, but luckily the early movesets tend to provide a lot less variety, not more.

I do also agree that it wouldn't be unreasonable not to start with these powerful moves at level 1, as they're intended to be via move relearners. If that was the footing that everyone started on, I think that would be perfectly reasonable - however, it wasn't. Older users got their chance to make characters with these more powerful moves. It's also quite a pity to know that you missed out on a lot of fun variety just because you took a break from the site, or didn't save up enough poke for a new character in time. Someone else getting toys to play with that you didn't doesn't strike me as very fair or fun, is my line of thinking, especially when it could be a very simple fix.

Forgive me for being a tad rambling, I wanted to elaborate a bit. I do like your proposed solution, and I wouldn't mind seeing it incorporated at all, so I'd happily put my support behind it. ^^

Right back at you~ It has been a while!

In any case, I just looked again, and...I'll admit, I have no idea what I was looking at. Toxic isn't even a TR. I intentionally went to double check it when I made that post and saw...SOMETHING that made be say "Yeah there it is." But I went to check again just now after you said that and...sure enough, it's neither a TM nor a TR in SWSH. Forgive me, I was TOTALLY wrong about Toxic. You are correct. xD

The actual reason why Salandit doesn't learn Toxic through TM anymore...is simply because it's not a TM OR a TR. So there you go. I'll probably go edit that out of my original post honestly. But if this site keeps the same TM list, then there's no reason a Salandit wouldn't still be able to learn it imo.

And yeah, I'm not gonna lie, I didn't bother looking at any movesets prior to Gen 5...because let's be honest with ourselves: Movesets prior to Gen 5 are generally TRASH~

I wouldn't worry too much about the moves, honestly. I was the one who wasn't around and have been kinda on hiatus for some time, so if I did miss something, that's still on me. Like I said before, I wasn't complaining about it while I was active, and I don't plan on complaining about it now xD But yeah, I definitely do not remember the opportunity to make characters with these moves...outside of the one egg move you're allowed OR just straight-up picking a Pokemon that has them...and again, that just might be because of my absence.

Either way, I probably have less on the line than most people here, so take my words and suggestions with a grain of salt xD If I'm honest, I have had issues with the way the site does things in the past, and that's largely where my inactivity stemmed from. So I probably have less stake in what goes on. I just felt like the conversation I was watching was kinda one-sided, so I figure I should present some of the other side that I could think of~

No worries! I just wanted to drop some counterpoints of my own, nothing personal there~

Though at least it not being a TM/TR anymore does explain it, I wasn't aware of that one - I was scratching my head so much there, aha.